Thursday, 12 September 2013

HOUSE OF LORDS SESSION 2002 TO 2003 Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform - Third Report

APPENDIX 1
The members of the Select Committee are:
L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
B. Carnegy of Lour
L. Dahrendorf (Chairman)
L. Desai
L. Harrison
L. Mayhew of Twysden
L. Temple-Morris
L. Tombs
L. Wigoder


Ralf Dahrendorf


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The Right Honourable
The Lord Dahrendorf
KBE FBA







Ralf Dahrendorf



Member of House of Lords



In office
15 July 1993 – 17 June 2009



Personal details



Born

1 May 1929
Hamburg, Germany



Died

17 June 2009 (aged 80)
Cologne, Germany



Nationality

United Kingdom
Germany



Political party

Liberal Democrats (UK); FDP (Germany)



Spouse(s)

Vera Dahrendorf
Ellen Dahrendorf (née Ellen Joan Krug) (1980–2004)
Christiane Dahrendorf (2004–2009)



Children

Nicola, Alexandra, and Daphne Dahrendorf



Alma mater

University of Hamburg
London School of Economics



Profession

Sociologist




Ralf Dahrendorf



Known for

Providing a new definition of class conflict based on authority relations



Influences

Marx, Weber


Ralf Gustav Dahrendorf, Baron Dahrendorf, KBE, FBA (1 May 1929 – 17 June 2009) was a German-British sociologist, philosopher, political scientist and liberal politician.

During his political career, he was a Member of the German Parliament, Parliamentary Secretary of State at the Foreign Office of Germany, European Commissioner for External Relations and Trade, European Commissioner for Research, Science and Education and Member of the British House of Lords, after he was created a life peer in 1993. He was subsequently known in the United Kingdom as Lord Dahrendorf.[1]

Dahrendorf was a leading expert on class divisions in modern society, and has been described as "one of the most influential thinkers of his generation".[2]

He served as director of the London School of Economics and Warden of St Antony's College at the University of Oxford. He also served as a Professor of Sociology at a number of universities in Germany and the United Kingdom, and was most recently a Research Professor at the Berlin Social Science Research Center.



Contents
[hide] 1 Early life
2 Education and career
3 Marriages and children
4 Death
5 Class and Class Conflict in Industrial Society
6 Dahrendorf's theory on class conflict
7 Criticism
8 Relationship to other classical theorists, and perspectives
9 Further reading
10 Works available in English
11 Works available in French
12 Works available in German
13 Awards and honours
14 See also
15 References
16 External links

Early life[edit source]

Born in Hamburg, Ralf Dahrendorf was the son of Lina and Gustav Dahrendorf, and brother of Frank Dahrendorf.[1] Ralf was known for strongly supporting anti-Nazi activities.[3] As a child, Ralf was a member of the Deutsches Jungvolk, the youngest branch of the Hitler Youth.[4] When Ralf was only a teenager, he and his father, a SPD member of the German Parliament, were arrested and sent to concentration camps for their Anti-Nazi activities during the National Socialist regime.[5][6]

Education and career[edit source]





Ralf Dahrendorf, photo taken in 1980.
He studied philosophy, classical philology, and sociology at Hamburg University between 1947 and 1952. He became a doctor of philosophy and classics (PhD) in 1952. He continued his academic research at London School of Economics under Karl Popper as a Leverhulme Research Scholar in 1953–54, gaining a PhD degree in sociology in 1956. He was a professor of sociology in Hamburg (1957–60), Tübingen (1960–64) and Konstanz (1966–69).[1]

From 1968 to 1969, Dahrendorf was a member of the Parliament of Baden-Württemberg. From 1969 to 1970 he was a member of the German parliament for the Freie Demokratische Partei (Free Democratic Party) (the German liberals). From 1969 to 1970 he was also a Parliamentary Secretary of State in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In 1970 he became a Commissioner in the European Commission in Brussels.

In 1974 the BBC invited him to present the annual Reith Lectures. In this series of six radio talks, entitled The New Libertyhe examined the definition of freedom.

From 1974 to 1984 Dahrendorf was director of the London School of Economics when he returned to Germany to become Professor of Social Science, Konstanz University (1984–86).

From 1967 to 1970 he was Chairman of the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Soziologie, resigning it when he took up his office at Brussels. Between 1976 and 1979 he led the educational sub-committee of the Benson Commission.[7]

Ralf Dahrendorf again settled in the United Kingdom in 1986, becoming a Governor of the London School of Economics. From 1987 to 1997, he was also Warden of St Antony's College at the University of Oxford, succeeding the historian Sir Raymond Carr.[1]

Dahrendorf was made a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE) by Queen Elizabeth II in 1982. He adopted British citizenship in 1988, and became known as Sir Ralf Dahrendorf, as only KBEs who are British subjects are entitled to use that title. In 1993, he was granted a life peerage and was named Baron Dahrendorf of Clare Market in the City of Westminster by the Queen. Clare Market is near the London School of Economics, and is also used for car parking by LSE staff. Dahrendorf chose this name to honour the School in this way, and also as a sign of his liberal humour. He sat in the House of Lords as a cross-bencher. Between 2000 and 2006 Dahrendorf served as Chairman of the Judging Panel of the FIRST Award for Responsible Capitalism .[8] He received the FIRST Responsible Capitalism lifetime Achievement Award in 2009. On 11 July 2007, he was awarded the Prince of Asturias Award for Social Studies.

In January 2005, he was appointed a Research Professor at the Social Science Research Center in Berlin (WZB). [9]

Dahrendorf held dual citizenship in the UK and Germany. After retiring, he lived partially in Germany and partially in the United Kingdom, with a home in London and one in Bonndorf in south-western Germany. When asked which city he considered his home, he once said, "I am a Londoner".[10] He also once said that his life was marked by a conflict between the obligation he felt to the country of his birth, Germany, and the attraction he felt for Britain.[6]

Marriages and children[edit source]

Dahrendorf was married three times. He married his first wife, Vera, in 1954. She was a fellow student at LSE. Together they had three daughters: Nicola, Alexandra and Daphne Dahrendorf. Nicola Dahrendorf has worked for the United Nations and as the West Africa Regional Conflict Adviser to the UK Government.

From 1980 to 2004, he was married to historian and translator Ellen Dahrendorf (née Ellen Joan Krug), the daughter of Professor James Krug. When he was created a peer in 1993, his wife became known as Lady Dahrendorf. Ellen Dahrendorf, who is Jewish, has served on the board of the Jewish Institute for Policy Research, been chair of the British branch of the New Israel Fund, and is a signatory of the Independent Jewish Voices declaration, which is critical of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians.[11][12][13]

Ralf Dahrendorf's first two marriages ended in divorce. In 2004 he married Christiane Dahrendorf, a Medical Doctor from Cologne.[14]

Death[edit source]

Dahrendorf died in Cologne, Germany, aged 80, on 17 June 2009, after suffering from cancer.[15]

He is survived by his third wife, three daughters, and one grandchild.[5]

Class and Class Conflict in Industrial Society[edit source]



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Dahrendorf’s most influential work on social inequality is Class and Class Conflict in Industrial Society, which was published in 1959. This book presents his first detailed account of the problem of inequality in modern, or postcapitalist, societies[16] Darendorf’s central argument is that neither structural functionalism nor Marxism alone provides an acceptable perspective on advanced society.[16][17] He claims that structural functionalists pay too little attention to the realities of social conflict and that Marx defined class too narrowly and in a historically-specific context. This historic context that Marx was writing in was one where wealth was the determining factor in power. The wealthy ruled and there was no way for the poor to gain any power or increase their position in society. Dahrendorf, however points out the changes that have occurred in society that come with democracy like voting for political parties, and increased mobility. He believes that the struggle for authority creates conflict.[18] Furthermore, he believes that traditional Marxism ignores consensus and integration in modern social structures.[16] Dahrendorf’s theory defined class not in terms of wealth like Marx, but by levels of authority.[18] Dahrendorf combines elements from both of these perspectives to develop his own theory about class conflict in postcapitalist society.

Dahrendorf's theory on class conflict[edit source]

Within the field of Sociology, Ralf Dahrendorf worked to develop conflict theory. This new theory attempted to bring together structural functionalism and Marxism.[19] Dahrendorf states that capitalism has undergone major changes since Marx initially developed his theory on class conflict. This new system of capitalism, which he identifies as postcapitalism, is characterized by diverse class structure and a fluid system of power relations. Thus, it involves a much more complex system of inequality.[16] Dahrendorf contends that postcapitalist society that has institutionalized class conflict into state and economic spheres.[16] For example, class conflict has been habituated through unions, collective bargaining, the court system, and legislative debate. In effect, the severe class strife typical of Marx’s time is not longer relevant. Dahrendorf’s theory often took the opposite view of functionalists. Conflict theory said that “every society at every point is subject to process of change”.[19] He believes that there is “dissension and conflict at every point in the social system” and “many societal elements as contributing to disintegration and change”.[20] They believe order comes from coercion from those at the top. They believe that power is an important factor in social order. Dahrendorf believes that both conflict theory and consensus theory are necessary because they reflect the two parts of society. Consensus theory focuses on the value integration into society, while conflict theory focuses on conflicts of interest and the force that holds society together despite these stresses.[20] Dahrendorf wanted to understand how conflict works.[21] He did not believe the two theories could be combined and focused on developing the conflict theory. Dahrendorf’s thesis was “the differential distribution of authority invariably becomes the determining factor of systematic social conflicts”.[20]

Dahrendorf believed that Marx’s theory could be updated to reflect modern society and Roman society. He rejects Marx’s two class system as too simplistic and overly focused on property ownership.[20] Due to the rise of the joint stock company, ownership does not necessarily reflect control of economic production in modern society.[16] Instead of describing the fundamental differences of class in terms of property, Dahrendorf claims that we must “replace the possession, or nonpossesion, of effective private property by the exercise of, or exclusion from, authority as the criterion of class formation”.[17] A crucial component to Dahrendorf’s conflict theory is the idea of authority. Although it initially appears to be an individual issue and psychological, Dahrendorf argues that authority is related to positions not individuals.[20] In this way, subordination and authority are products of expectation specified by society, and if those roles are not adhered to, sanctions are imposed. Dahrendorf expands on this idea with the notion that roles of authority may conflict when in different positions that call for different things. According to Dahrendorf, these different defined areas of society where people’s roles may be different are called imperatively coordinated associations.[22] The groups of society in different associations are drawn together by their common interests. Dahrendorf explains that latent interests are natural interests that arise unconsciously in conflict between superordinates and subordinates. He defines manifest interests as latent interests when they are realized. Dahrendorf believed that the basis of class conflict was the division of three groups of society: quasi groups, interest groups, and conflict groups.[22] Thus, society can be split up into the "command class" and the "obey class" and class conflict should refer to situations of struggle between those with authority and those without.[23] Quasi groups are “aggregates of incumbents of positions with identical role interests”.[22] Interest groups are derived from the quasi groups and they are organized with members, an organization, and a program or goal. The main difference between quasi groups and interest groups are that interest groups are able to organize and have a sense of “belonging” or identity.[24] Darhendorf acknowledged that other conditions like politics, adequate personnel, and recruitment would play a role along with the groups. Unlike Marx, however, he did not believe that random recruitment into the quasi group, it would not start a conflict group. In contrast to Lewis Coser’s ideas that functions of conflict maintained the status quo, Dahrendorf believed that that conflict also leads to change (in social structure) and development.[25] His belief in a changing society separated Dahrendorf’s ideas from Marx who supported the concept of a utopia.[1]

Criticism[edit source]

While Dahrendorf sought to blend the ideas of structural functionalism and Marxism, conflict theory did little to improve the theory. Conflict theory has many of the same problems of structural functionalism. Conflict theory is also linked to structural functionalism by its ideas about systems, positions, and roles. Overall, the theory has few similarities with Marxism. In addition the theory takes only a macrosociological perspective. The theory fails to address much of social life.[25]

Relationship to other classical theorists, and perspectives[edit source]

Unlike many of the other works published by social theorists in the 1950s, Dahrendorf’s work acknowledges the same class interests that worried Marx . Like Marx, Dahrendorf agreed that conflict is still a basic fact of social life. Dahrendorf believed that class conflict could have beneficial consequences for society, such as progressive change.[16] Dahrendorf is recognized for being one of the best departures from the structural functionalist tradition of the 1950s. Dahrendorf criticized and wanted to challenge the “false, utopian representation of societal harmony, stability, and consensus by the structural functionalist school.”[26] Nevertheless, Dahrendorf still shares key ideas with structural functionalists, such as a general faith in the efficacy of political and economic institutions. Like Weber, Dahrendorf criticizes Marx’s view that the working class will ultimately become a homogeneous group of unskilled machine operators. Dahrendorf points out that in postcapitalist society there are elaborate distinctions regarding income, prestige, skill level, and life chances. Dahrendorf’s pluralist view of class and power structures and belief that hierarchies of authority are inevitable in modern societies also reflect Weberian ideas.[16]

Further reading[edit source]
Julie Smith, Ralf Dahrendorf (Lord Dahrendorf) in Brack et al. (eds.) Dictionary of Liberal Biography; Politico's 1998 pp. 89–90
Julie Smith, Ralf Dahrendorf in Brack & Randall (eds.) Dictionary of Liberal Thought; Politico's 2007 pp83–85
Edward G. Grabb, "Theories of Social Inequality: Classical and Contemporary Perspectives." Ontario: Harcourt Brace & Company, 1997

Works available in English[edit source]
Dahrendorf, Ralf. (1959) Class and Class Conflict in Industrial Society. Stanford: Stanford University Press
Dahrendorf, Ralf. (1967) Society and Democracy in Germany. New York & London: W. W. Norton & Company
"The Modern Social Conflict". University of California Press: Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1988
Dahrendorf, Ralf (1974) The New Liberty BBC Radio Reith Lectures
Dahrendorf, Ralf (1990) Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: In a letter intended to have been sent to a gentleman in Warsaw. New York: Random House
Dahrendorf, Ralf. (1979) Life chances: Approaches to Social and Political Theory. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson, ISBN 0-297-77682-7

Works available in French[edit source]
Dahrendorf, Ralf. (1972) Classes et conflits de classes dans la société industrielle. (Introduction by Raymond Aron), Paris: Gallimard

Works available in German[edit source]
Die angewandte Aufklärung: Gesellschaft u. Soziologie in Amerika. Piper, München 1962
Homo Sociologicus: ein Versuch zur Geschichte, Bedeutung und Kritik der Kategorie der sozialen Rolle. Westdeutscher Verlag, Köln/Opladen 1965
Gesellschaft und Demokratie in Deutschland. Piper, München 1965
Konflikt und Freiheit: auf dem Weg zur Dienstklassengesellschaft. Piper, München 1972, ISBN 3-492-01782-7
Pfade aus Utopia: Arbeiten zur Theorie und Methode der Soziologie. Piper, München 1974, ISBN 3-492-00401-6
Lebenschancen: Anläufe zur sozialen und politischen Theorie. Suhrkamp-Taschenbuch, Frankfurt a.M. 1979, ISBN 3-518-37059-6
Die neue Freiheit: Überleben und Gerechtigkeit in einer veränderten Welt. Suhrkamp, Frankfurt a.M. 1980, ISBN 3-518-37123-1
Die Chancen der Krise: über die Zukunft des Liberalismus. DVA, Stuttgart 1983, ISBN 3-421-06148-3
Fragmente eines neuen Liberalismus. DVA, Stuttgart 1987, ISBN 3-421-06361-3
Der moderne soziale Konflikt: Essay zur Politik der Freiheit. DVA, Stuttgart 1992, ISBN 3-421-06539-X
Die Zukunft des Wohlfahrtsstaats. Verl. Neue Kritik, Frankfurt a.M. 1996
Liberale und andere: Portraits. DVA, Stuttgart 1994, ISBN 3-421-06669-8
Liberal und unabhängig: Gerd Bucerius und seine Zeit. Beck, München 2000, ISBN 3-406-46474-2
Über Grenzen: Lebenserinnerungen. Beck, München 2002, ISBN 3-406-49338-6
Auf der Suche nach einer neuen Ordnung: Vorlesungen zur Politik der Freiheit im 21. Jahrhundert. Beck, München 2003, ISBN 3-406-50540-6
Der Wiederbeginn der Geschichte: vom Fall der Mauer zum Krieg im Irak; Reden und Aufsätze. Beck, München 2004, ISBN 3-406-51879-6
Werner Bruns, Döring Walter (Hrsg): Der selbstbewusste Bürger. Bouvier Verlag
Engagierte Beobachter. Die Intellektuellen und die Versuchungen der Zeit, Wien: Passagen Verlag 2005
Versuchungen der Unfreiheit. Die Intellektuellen in Zeiten der Prüfung . München 2006, ISBN 3-406-54054-6

Awards and honours[edit source]
1977: Honorary Degree (Doctor of Science) awarded by the University of Bath.[27]
1982: Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire
1989: Grand Cross with Star and Sash of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
1993: Life Peer (Baron Dahrendorf)
1997: Theodor-Heuss-Preis
1999: Medal of Merit of Baden-Württemberg
1999: Honorary Senator of the University of Hamburg
2002: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Italian Republic
2003: Pour le Mérite

See also[edit source]
Liberalism
Contributions to liberal theory
Dahrendorf hypothesis
Karl Marx
Max Weber
structural functionalist
Marxism

References[edit source]

1.^ a b c d e Mann, Douglas (2008). A Survey of Modern Social Theory. Ontario, Canada: Oxford University Press. p. 42.
2.^ http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hWRqoHd3P5j-T1A0Ii9ZrtHJFxpQ
3.^ Grimes, William. "Ralf Dahrendorf, Sociologist, Dies at 80 ", The New York Times, 22 June 2009. Accessed 10 October 2009.
4.^ Stern, Fritz. "Five Germanys I have Known", pg. 225.
5.^ a b Grimes, William. "Ralf Dahrendorf, Sociologist, Dies at 80 ", The New York Times, 22 June 2009. Accessed 22 June 2009.
6.^ a b "Lord Dahrendorf". The Daily Telegraph (London). 18 June 2009. Retrieved 22 May 2010.
7.^ "Emerald: Article Requests: Indefinite articles". Emerald Group Publishing. Retrieved 27 May 2009.
8.^ "The FIRST International Award for Responsible Capitalism".
9.^ WZB website
10.^ http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4406145,00.html
11.^ "A time to speak out". The Guardian (London). 5 February 2007. Retrieved 22 May 2010.
12.^ http://www.jafi.org.il/education/hasbara/headlines/a4-4.html
13.^ http://www.ijv.org.uk/
14.^ Pick, Hella. "Lord Dahrendorf, German sociologist and politician who became director of the LSE and a life peer ", The Guardian, 19 June 2009. Accessed 10 October 2009.
15.^ "German sociologist Ralf Dahrendorf dead". EarthTimes / DPA. Retrieved 18 June 2009.
16.^ a b c d e f g h Grabb, Edward G. "Theories of Social Inequality." Ontario: Harcourt Brace & Company. 1997
17.^ a b Dahrendorf, Ralf."Class and Class Conflict in Industrial Society." Stanford CA: Stanford University. 1959
18.^ a b Mann, Douglas (2008). A Survey of Modern Social Theory. Ontario, Canada: Oxford University Press. p. 43.
19.^ a b Ritzer, George (2008). Sociological Theory. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill. p. 265.
20.^ a b c d e Ritzer, George (2008). Sociological Theory. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill. p. 266.
21.^ Allan, Kenneth (2005). Explorations in Classical Sociological Theory. California: Pine Forge Press. p. 16.
22.^ a b c Ritzer, George (2008). Sociological Theory. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill. p. 268.
23.^ Robinson, Robert V.; Kelley, Jonathan (1979). "Class as Conceived by Marx and Dahrendorf: Effects on Income Inequality and Politics in the United States and Great Britain". American Sociological Review 44 (1): 38–58. JSTOR 2094817.
24.^ Allan, Kenneth (2006). Contemporary Socialand Sociological Theory. California: Pine Forge Press. p. 164.
25.^ a b Ritzer, George (2008). Sociological Theory. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill. p. 269.
26.^ Grabb, Edward G. "Theories of Social Inequality." Toronto: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston of Canada. 1984
27.^ http://www.bath.ac.uk/ceremonies/hongrads/

External links[edit source]





Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Ralf Dahrendorf

2011 Dahrendorf Symposium - Changing the Debate on Europe – Moving Beyond Conventional Wisdoms
2011 Dahrendorf Symposium Blog
Straddling Theory with Practice – Conversation with Sir Ralf Dahrendorf by Harry Kreisler of the Institute of International Studies; 4 April 1989
Daily Telegraph obituary
Biography at the Liberal Democrat History Group



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This page was last modified on 21 August 2013 at 00:36.

10 comments:

Zoompad said...

The reason I have reposted this information is that I surprised about this committee, and think the people of this country have a right to know who all these shadowy string pulling people are, because it's affecting the way this country is governed.

If the BBC really wants to cure its "Anus Horribulus" problem I suggest they start treating themselves to an emetic purge, and use their broadcasting to educate the British public instead of trying their best to fill everyones head with mindnumbing crap and drivel.

Zoompad said...

SPECIAL REPORT

11 December 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the Select Committee appointed to report whether the provisions of any bill inappropriately delegate legislative power, or whether they subject the exercise of legislative power to an inappropriate degree of parliamentary scrutiny; to report on documents and draft orders laid before Parliament under the Regulatory Reform Act 2001; and to perform, in respect of such documents and orders and subordinate provisions orders laid under that Act, the functions performed in respect of other instruments by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments[1].

ORDERED TO REPORT


HENRY VIII POWERS TO MAKE INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL AND SIMILAR PROVISION
INTRODUCTION

This report arises from the debate on Third Reading in the House of Lords of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill (now Act) about a new clause which was inserted at that stage to permit the Secretary of State by order to make provision, including amendment of enactments, in consequence of or in connection with a provision of the bill. In our report on the new clause[2] we noted that such provisions were not unprecedented and concluded that the delegation and the level of scrutiny in the particular instance were sufficient; we expressed concern, however, about the late stage at which the amendment had been introduced and about the reasons given to explain the need for such provision.

During the debate on the Humble Address, our Chairman indicated that this Committee would be considering the issue of Henry VIII powers[3] concerning incidental, consequential and similar provision more generally.[4] We now report our conclusions. Attached as Appendix 2 is a paper setting out the issues we considered and giving twelve examples of the type of provision concerned. There is also attached, in Appendix 3, a letter from the First Parliamentary Counsel dated 9 December 2002.

PRINCIPAL QUESTIONS

We have considered three questions:

· Is there a case for using Henry VIII powers to make incidental, consequential and similar provision?

· If so, should there be a presumption that the same form of words should be used in every case?

· What is the appropriate level of Parliamentary scrutiny?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 This report is also published on the Internet at the House of Lords Select Committee Home Page (http://www.parliament.uk), where further information about the work of the Committee is also available. Back


2 28th Report ( Session 2001-02). Back



3 Powers which confer on Ministers the ability to amend Acts of Parliament by subordinate legislation are often referred to as "Henry VIII powers".



Anonymous said...

the so called "anti natzi league"
was nothing of the sort, it was set up with israeli money and jewish extremists in the UK. actree Miriam karlin and zoe wannamaker were founder members.
it was built on hate and fear to demonise those who were keep to express british pride and nationalism

Zoompad said...

What on earth is this, and why have we not heard a peep about it from television or radio?

Anonymous said...

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=79638

Making your boys wear pink, the agenda to homosexualise men

Anonymous said...

what is what barbara ? was looking in the comments and did not know what you meant
big sue x

Zoompad said...

Sorry Sue, I was speaking out loud asking what the heck is this Henry 8th Powers.

It just seems really bizzare to me that they have had this select committee for this and yet who has heard of it, because until this morning I certainly hadn't!

Anonymous said...

barbara can someone xplain to me whats going on, i hada fierce argument witha jewish man in my dept at work, as he said its not wrong for adults to have sex with small boys, and i say it is.

Zoompad said...

Of course its wrong! Tell your Jewish friend to read his Holy Scriptures with his heart as well as his legalistic brain.

Tell him that the Lord our God made the laws for our sake, for us to live in peace with one another. He wants us to do to others as we would be done to ourselves.

Ask him if he would like it if a really powerful fat ugly old crow with all yellow cack dribbling from her orifaces and really disgusting vile breath that stinks of sewers and old garlic grabbed hold of him and forced him to have sex with her. Because thats pretty much how a child feels when they are forced to have sex with an adult!

Anonymous said...

child abse ok for jews read this


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4428383,00.html